Christian Romance! Season 8 is Here!
Danielle tells Krispin about why Christian romance has flown under the radar - and needs some attention!
Did you grow up reading Christian Romance books? Why not try recapping one (under a minute is great) for us and making it onto the podcast! Simply call in to our voicemail line at (612) 656-9562 or record a voice memo and email it to us at propheticimaginationstation@gmail.com.
Statistics on Romance Readers found here.
bell hooks on romance books for the Washington Post.
From Reddit (on a thread about bell hooks):
“Romance as a genre is a safe haven for so many of us. We come here to know what it is to love deeply and be loved in return. For marginalized people especially having a place to land, this inclusive affirming space is more important than ever. Romance writers have been pushing boundaries for a long time, fighting for a space to tell our stories where women are sexual, Black love is cherished, queerness celebrated, where disabled people are beautiful, and the working class get HEAs [Happily Ever Afters]”
Books and authors to be explored later on in this series:
Janette Oke
Francine Rivers
Christy Miller Series
Bodie Theone
Amish Romance
And more!
For more information on our podcast, check out our website. You can also find us on Twitter and on Instragram.
To support our show (we can’t do this without you!) join us at Patreon! We do monthly episodes for patrons-only and occasionally do a fun zoom hangout. You can join this community and get access to the backlog of patron-only podcasts for as little as $1.50 a month!
TRANSCRIPT
Prophetic Imagination Station
Note: The following transcript was automatically generated and may contain errors.
Krispin: I'm so excited to talk to you because I like you and we don't get to talk unless we're recording a podcast.
Danielle: is not true, but it feels like it's true, but Hey, welcome to season eight at the prophetic imagination station. Uh, I'm saying that to you,
Krispin: right.
Danielle: I'm also saying it to the listeners.
Krispin: For a minute there, I was just like, is it 7? It is. It is. I mean, seven, eight. It is season eight.
Danielle: is, isn't it, it says on Our graphic that our friends Zech made for this season, which is truly astonishing. So I'm going off of the graphic we made several months ago. Um, yes, he's Nate. It's finally here. the Christian Romance. season of the prophetic imagination station. I can't believe we're here. I have done the. Kicking into screaming with my feet dragging, which is interesting.
We'll get into all of that.
Okay. Because Christian romance is a very complicated topic, Chris but now I'm going to Be like, the show runner of this, of this series. Um, that's terrifying.
Krispin: I'm passing the Baton.
Danielle: Um, you get to talk about shame and hardcore music, and I get to talk about, freaking romance books. It doesn't quite seem fair, but you know, what, we're going to get into that.
So at the end of this episode, I'm going to ask you some questions about your own.
sort of past with, you know, growing up in white evangelicalism in the us, uh, romance stuff. So we'll get into all that. But first, so first we need to set some ground rules about this season, Okay. And I'm not really worried about you crisp, and even though I'm like, glaring at you, cause I'm looking at you, I'm more just trying to set expectations for. people who are listening.
Okay. Uh, so, you know, ground rule number one is that uh, we are not going to be making fun of. women. Okay. during this season and women, uh, you know, [00:02:00] primarily makeup The people who, read a genre fiction that is in the romance category and this season really is going to be focusing a ton on books because that is where most, of Christian romance ends up playing out. We'll also talk about some movies and a few other things, but that's kind of where it hangs out in.
the pop culturals. I Geist. Yeah. So, so we aren't going to be making fun of women. Okay. And what women read. Okay. And what women like. So we're not gonna be doing anything like that. We are going to understand that it's very, very, very complex. Do you think romance as a genre, take the Christian out of it? Like what are your first thoughts on it?
Krispin: I think of like, you know, quote unquote trashy novels, uh, at the gas station on that little thing that like rolls around that spins around, uh, with some ample bosoms [00:03:00] spilling. And some muscular man. That's what I think. That's what I, like. I always thought like romance books where like code for, you know, literary softcore porn, or like, like soft core porn literature.
Danielle: Wow. Okay. So you've already kind of identified why I think romance as a genre is. pretty stigmatized, right? Uh, you, you call it Trash Thank you for that. Chrisman you talked about women's
Krispin: I quoted, I said, quote, unquote, trach,
Danielle: say, quote unquote. I know I'm just making you feel uncomfortable and you are getting get uncomfortable. I can see it. Um, before I started researching this season, you know, I think I was just a little bit like, yeah, I know this is a stigmatized genre. I don't know what.
to think about it because, um, I grew up I grew up in Christian world and I have a lot of extra baggage, I think, to add
to this idea of, um, romance genre. It just kind of even convolutes it. So a lot of the season is going to be me figuring out, my feelings about all these things. So let's just put that disclaimer out
Krispin: Can I just say that, like I just recognize something in my brain, which is like, when I think about genres, I am just like, oh, they're Christian books. It's like Christian fiction. And like Jeanette Oak and Frank Peretti, you fall in the same genre because in my mind, as a teenager, it was like, is it Christian?
Or is it secularity? Christian bookstore. Okay. And I didn't even think about like, these are different types of books.
Danielle: Oh, yes, yes,
Krispin: you know what I mean? Like, it just was like a Christian book to me.
Danielle: Well, I think That's true. And, it is hard to find statistics. When I like try and Google, you know, sales numbers for Christian romance, they don't really have that.
genre category.
Krispin: Right. I was wondering
Danielle: which
Krispin: if you go into a Christian bookstore, it's not [00:05:00] like the romance aisle.
Danielle: sometimes there is. I think that, I think that is changing Now as romance Uh, has become the most popular genre. in Christian fiction So that has kind of changed since when you and I used to haunt the halls of a Christian bookstore.
You know, things have changed a little bit, and and we'll get into that later in the season specifically, when I talk to people about Amish fiction, because that's been a huge thing.
Okay. So I kind of want people as they're listing, you know, we, we need to try and leave. our assumptions at The door you you can recognize, like culturally, you might have someone.
Distaste for the romance genre. maybe you're somebody who freaky loves romance books and you really don't want to hear that denigrated. Uh, we hear you, you. know, We're here. We're here for all types of people.
If you think they're not great, if you love them, like we're going to make space for everybody, to have, uh, to be a part of this conversation. Okay. But I also am by me, okay. So I can't
Krispin: like.
Danielle: [00:06:00] Just fully say this entire thing is good. This entire thing is bad. Okay. And I am, I have some really kind of intense things to say about Christian fiction in particular.
And I don't mean that, uh, about like romance in general. Does that make sense? So I'm going to be making some distinctions. We'll be talking about the overall reminders, genre, a lot, but my criticisms, which will be sprinkled throughout this season and in particular at the end, we'll all be for the Christian subsets.
Krispin: Let me ask you, maybe this is like two combo, like big of a question to ask so early, but it is your criticism because of what Christian romance should be because it's Christian or is it because of what it is? Because it's a subculture.
Danielle: Here's here's what I'll say. I'll say the most. the best, Most beneficial, positive subversive. anti-capitalist anti patriarchy, [00:07:00] inclusive, diverse romance.
Like everything that makes romance good. I do not see that in. Christian,
Krispin: Okay. I thought you were going to be like the most inclusive is in Christian publishing and I was like, what? No,
Danielle: So opposite opposite of that. So like all the potential and the actual. lived Reality of romance being a positive force for women and including women from marginalized communities that don't opt in, get representation you know, that is all lacking Christian romaine. So that's kind of like my big beef is like, as I've studied it, as I have now a much more complex, and nuanced understanding of romance, I'm like, well, none of the things I ally are in crush infection.
So what we'll get to all that we'll get to all that Um, I dunno, I kind of wanted to give you some stats about the. romance genre, because I'm sure, you don't know, any of these things, but like, uh, it's a billion dollar industry.
and It [00:08:00] has like romance as a genre consistently been like one of the most profitable. genres of books since it really came out of the gate. In the seventies.
Right. What's also interesting is that romance fiction, became very popular, like right around the rise.
of like feminism in the seventies. And so like historian, those scholars have been like, oh, that's interesting What's that about? You know, because at first blush, it seems very much not feminist some of this literature, right.
And some of the re romantic trips. So it's a very profitable industry. Always had a diversity problem, not just in Christian romance, but the romance genre up until you know, kind of, recently it's very dominated by uh, you know, white women and. uh, just, And just some tropes again, that can kind of feed into patriarchal thinking, Uh, but there's always room and people have always
Krispin: like
Danielle: Played with the conventions and there's always been places where it has been really subversive. So I thought That was fascinating. Um, [00:09:00] There's not tons of studies on romance, which again is part of the problem And part of the reason I did feel compelled to do this season is because we just don't take what women. read and what women like serious.
That's never been seen as something worthy of study of, academic pursuit. um, of course we'll publish books that sell because we can profit off of women.
but we won't study
Krispin: Right. I was going to say that's like a, there's a divide there because both of us in publishing know that marketing departments talk about women because they buy books. Uh, but what you're saying is like the marketing departments are over here and academia is over here and
Danielle: Yeah. Or even in pop culture. Right. and
so, um, do you know, okay. Just give your best guessed. What is the basic definition?
of a romance novel?
Krispin: a like something, is there a love, uh, hang on a love [00:10:00] interest that, uh, culminates in a, uh, in a relationship.
Danielle: Oh my gosh. You're really close. Okay. So the definition is, um, there is a central love story and an emotionally satisfying and. optimistic ending. So I happy ending is the hallmark of what makes a romance book or romance book. Okay.
Krispin: so
Danielle: you can have love stories and it doesn't happily. And then we would just call that like literary fiction.
or adult, you know, like adult novel, like just that kind of stuff. Right. But To be a romance book. It has to have a happy ending. And I think this is so important to talk about because when we denigrate. romance as a genre, when we call it trashy when we call it and I'm not picking on you. Okay. Like, that's like, that's like a lot, a lot of people think of it. What we're denigrating is the pleasure that women.
Krispin: get at
Danielle: when they read about good things happening to women.
Right. And so I did grow up sort of trying to read [00:11:00] some like literary nonfiction that everybody's going on and on about, and just kind of overwhelmed at like, How bad it is, Especially to women. and so I can see why romance is, just really comforting to people. And, you know, it really adds up. There's like two genres. And so romance is the number one best-selling genre. within all genres. And then the Number two is mysteries and thrillers.
And both of those genres are very predictable. right?
Romance always has a happy ending and mystery, thrillers always solved. And so like during COVID time, The sales of both of those Rhonda is just exploded. So Romance is trucking along Right now. It's very much in the public consciousness. And, um, I I don't know. Do you want to hear some of the
romance sub genres?
Okay. Because, okay. So here's like the most popular sub genres. Okay. We have contemporary romance.
so set from 1950 to present. Um,
Krispin: How prevalent is that? Like, I feel like when I think of romance, I think of [00:12:00] everything, but that
Danielle: I don't know, I don't have the numbers, but that's true. Okay. There's Erotic romance. So erotica is written specifically for females, about female sexual pleasure. Okay. There's historical romance. There's paranormal romance. Okay. That's not what I've ever read. There's romance with spiritual elements.
Krispin: I was going to say the paranormal romance is that Christian romance.
Danielle: But So where we will be focusing on mostly on romance with spiritual elements. What we've called Christian romance. Ah, there's romantic suspense So like a mystery thriller, and then there's young adult romance, which it continues to grow in popularity.
Krispin: And is your favorite? No, man. You like, I think, I think you're kind of what you said earlier, right? Is like, there is a difference between.
Danielle: why a yeah, I do like I do. like young adult romance. I do. Okay. So the, who reads romance books. Okay. It is well, do you want to make a guess female to male on the [00:13:00] binaries know
Krispin: I already know cause they listened to one of the episodes.
Danielle: Okay. So I can't ask you that. So the average romance reader, they're 82% female and 18% male, the average age. You want to guess the average,
age. And again, I think this is more like a median thing, so it
Krispin: Yeah. 35,
Danielle: between 35, and 39 years old and I am 38 So I like, I have a white woman who was 38.
Krispin: Isn't that? Basically the median age of people that read books that read a toll
Danielle: I think so. And so, so the ethnicity breakdown, it's 73% white, 12% black, 7%, uh, Latin X, 4% Asian, Uh, and then the sexual sexual orientation is a 6% heterosexual. Um, so yeah, I'm like, well,
I don't fit in most of those, you know, categories.
Krispin: you're the target audience,[00:14:00]
Danielle: I can't say. Um, any surprises there for you?
Krispin: Uh, no. Did it say anything about.
Danielle: any, No, economic?
No, no, there wasn't anything about class, but we will get to class in a minute. So one of the things that was really impactful for me as I was doing.
Krispin: of
Danielle: thinking about my own prejudices against the genre, because I don't think of myself as reading a lot of romance nor do I understand much?
of romance And what is romantic to other people, but just full disclosure.
Okay. You're
Krispin: That is not a surprise to me,
Danielle: Okay.
Krispin: just because I tried to do a lot of romantic things, uh, early in our marriage. And Danielle,
Danielle: to that. We're going to get to
Krispin: Danielle was like, that is cheesy. That it's not romantic to me.
Danielle: Uh, we will get to that in a minute. So I'm just saying, this is kind of interesting because I, you know, in the process of being diagnosed as autistic, so being [00:15:00] neurodivergent, it makes a lot of sense.
that Much of this, does it work for me? but Hey, I'm going to take all my
Krispin: little
Danielle: Autistic skills and find some patterns. And and study what other people, like and we're going to come to some conclusions, Okay. But yes, I am not the norm in some ways, but in a lot of ways, I am like, the ideal romance reader. so one of the things that really stood out to me as I was researching this stuff was.
this thing I found on Reddit About bell hooks. And I, bring this up in multiple of the interviews. I did, Cause it's just stood out to me so much, but you know, bell hooks, who's just like wow. feminist icon. Right. Um, and she had what she called, like a two pack a day habit of reading Harlequin romance novel. So Harlequin romance is, they're the ones that you mentioned, like there at gas stations, they were at grocery stores, Right? Um, bodice rippers.
We would call them like all that stuff. Right. And she read them. Like two a day. And she was interviewed [00:16:00] by the Washington post in 1999. And, um, she really hated kind of like, the cultural narrative happening in the late nineties about why would any self-respecting woman like read these books They're all fantasy. they only set you up for disappointment. Um,
Krispin: I'm thinking about like that and then like the angsty acoustic, like women playing some music at that time, right?
Yeah. Right,
Danielle: They were going to denigrate it. Yes.
Krispin: right.
Danielle: right. And so, but this is what bell hooks said. She says um, she reached to a day and she said, I would credit Harlequin romances, as much as I would credit Emily Dickinson as being a factor in my enchantment. with words. So like her being this writer. And so she was saying that they serve as an important fantasy vehicle that offers an escape route for women trapped in dysfunctional.
families. Um, and she's like, it's not about the print saving you at the end. It's about you trying. triumphing [00:17:00] over the obstacles in your life. and it gives women autonomy.
And I love this. She you know, she hated the idea that,
these books set up people for disappointments cause they're happy endings. and she said only a crazy person. doesn't want to be rescued. Um, like it's really normative for women to, want good things to happen to them Okay. So the central therapeutic message she says and Harlequin romance is, is that you will not be abandoned. What I am seeking is that love that will not. let me down. And I, do. I just think it's so powerful to say this feminist icon was saying, like, I reject the idea.
That women aren't finding something of value. in these books. Okay. And I just, I just want to keep that curiosity with me and then somebody on Reddit, this is like that was obviously in 1999.
Bell hooks passed this past year. Um, but somebody on Reddit said this about kind of bell hooks and the books and their own engagement with books, it says romance as, a genre is a safe Haven for so many [00:18:00] of us. We come here to know what it is to love deeply and to be loved in return for marginalized people, especially having a place to.
land This inclusive affirming space is more important than ever Romance writers have been pushing boundaries for a long time. finding for a space to tell our stories where women are sexual black love is chair. Queerness is celebrated where disabled people are beautiful and the working class get happily ever afters. And I thought that was So cool. Like, I don't think that's all of Romans. at all, but I think when.
when People from marginalized spaces say there is something really good here happening.
and there's a reason why people are drawn to it, like we gotta pay attention. Right. We've gotta pay attention. So this is helpful for me when I don't always understand, like what is romantic to people, what is sexy to people? You know, I I understand, I don't understand all of it, but I don't think anybody can understand. all of it. Right. And that's why it's, it's a wide genre and. Some people really, really like Christian romance turns [00:19:00] out. Uh, it really does it for that. We'll get into all of
Krispin: Russian romance. Oh, Christian romance.
Danielle: lot of people are into Christian romance and it's complicated. and we'll get into that.
Um, why, Okay. I want to take a quick break. and say, Speaking of trying to understand, romance, I watched season two a Bridger gin, and you are currently watching.
it. Right? What do you think? I skipped season. Because I read a synopsis of it and did not think it would be, for me, but then on Tik TOK, people are talking about season two and I was like, well, that kind of sounds where my jam, you know, I like Jane Austin. I like along smolder. You know, all that stuff, slow burn, I guess they call it. Um, what are you, what are you thinking about? Fredericton right. now?
Krispin: Yeah. I mean, it feels very Jane Austeny.
Yeah. Um, I mean, it also reminds me of 10 things. I hate about you, older sister, you know, that whole dynamic.
Danielle: Which is the Shakespearian update. Yes. Okay. [00:20:00]
Krispin: Um, yeah, and I mean, it is really interesting. I, I just, I was expecting more of like a, this is what happened last season and I'm just like, you just get dumped in. I do not know what any of this means.
Um, I think like the different races of the actors, like is really interesting. I'm trying to figure out like what that means. Um, and so I think that's really cool. Like, I can't tell us that was like an intentional, like, we just don't want to cast all white people. I know that I, okay. Yeah. I was like, I could do some research on this, but this is just like, um, but yeah, I'm really enjoying it.
And I guess, I mean, I should mention that. As a teenager, I watched the ane version of pride and prejudice more than
Danielle: is a and E what do you mean?
You mean the BBC
Krispin: It's actually a and E, which is another production company in, in
Danielle: But he's the one with
Krispin: Yeah.
Danielle: Just say the column first one, but what,
Krispin: It's because here's why, because I've [00:21:00] mentioned the BBC version to people that are really intense about it before, and they're like, actually it's okay.
Danielle: oh my gosh, you're more in the romance world than I am. okay.
So, so how many times did you watch the Colin Firth one.
And how many DVDs. Was it? on?
Krispin: Yeah. Yeah. It was like five hours and I watched it three times
Danielle: like I've watched it once or twice. with you.
Krispin: Right.
Danielle: I don't think I watched it before I met you. I don't know. I read Jane Austin. And I did like it um, for sure. And I love the movie Emma, when it came out. So like now, looking back, I'm like Jane Austen. I swear. I swear every romance book that I really, really like has One of the main characters appears to be, neuro divergent. Mr. Dyer, STI.
Krispin: you kidding me
Danielle: He's so principled, he's so rigid, But he's actually a little
gummy bear in the middle. That is like me. So. that's also fascinating when I read those Jane Austen books, you know, I did not.
identify with the main female character, which again [00:22:00] is probably, you
Krispin: Uh,
Danielle: to me. I mean, I did a little bit Emma, because she's really naive and doesn't understand how the world works anyway.
Krispin: new,
Danielle: so Bryshere is like super popular right now which I think speaks to the fact these in Bridgeton was based off of books, but they do have a much more diverse writers room for this show it's produced by Sean Deland. yeah. There's people of all races. I mean, the, I think that two of The main female leads this season are both from Southeast Asia and they're just like, Dead gorgeous.
And I loved it. I really love Richardson season two.
So I'm like, I'm not somebody that hates romance. Um, but I do have some sort of like parameters for me that makes me enjoy it. I do love, a historical piece. I do love when consent.
is a very big deal. Um, and Yeah. I, I don't know. I think the neurodivergent thing too.
Krispin: I mean, I think that you like shows that where nothing upsetting happens,
Danielle: Oh, that's [00:23:00]
Krispin: right? Like it could be,
Danielle: what I needed to know how to happy. I literally.
Krispin: you are the target audience. Oh.
Danielle: trust TV shows.
Right. I think with the romance books, you can trust like, okay, it has to have a happy ending.
Krispin: Right.
Danielle: But you can't trust her TV shows. So I do think part of the reason. Bridger tin is so freaking popular is because it does have happy endings for people and it is more diverse, Right. Then we're used to seeing a period piece set in Regency era, England.
Krispin: do you think because of its differences, there's more of a cultural permission to like, like it to say, like I watched this and I liked it and I'm not embarrassed because
Danielle: I'm having the opposite reaction.
because when the first season came out, everybody talked about how much sex there was in it. and so I was like, well, I don't really, I don't really enjoy watching people have sex at all on camera. So I did not want to watch it uh, for that. And I still [00:24:00] think growing up in like purity culture and Christian, you know, whatever, I don't feel very comfortable. publicly saying I like something that.
has a lot of sex scenes in it.
I'm just being honest.
Krispin: But I'm wondering like culturally people that are not you,
Danielle: oh, I see.
Krispin: you know what I mean? Like I wonder if that's some of the popularity of like, you know, there's this element of like, oh, it's different than these other things. I don't
Danielle: And I think The main thing I heard was because there was so much sex in it and people loved that.
And, uh, you know, this is just me again being me and not understanding the way the world works. Watching the Twitters ever watching the tick talks. and there's actually this amazing tech talk about this, this guy, is actually a black man being like, I freaking love Fredericton. I freaking love the like long glances and like they almost like connect, and then, oh, those and they have, as he was just like, oh, I love that. You know what I was like, yeah, we need more permission for everybody. [00:25:00] of Whatever cultural background, orientation, race, gender. to be able To be more honest about what they love about romance and being drawn to. that. And so I got to think that's cool. I think it's definitely outside of my comfort zone even to be like. I love Virginia season two And that is worth, we explored. Like, why is that so difficult? for us to talk about What we like when it comes to romance?
So I have, I have lots of thoughts about that. A lot of it is probably tied to. my own upbringing, but also I'm just a weirdo
Krispin: mean, no. Yeah, it is interesting to think about like, where are those love stories that are like, I'm thinking of the office and Jim and Pam, and like, that is a really good picture. Everybody is invested. Right. Right. Exactly. But like, you're allowed to be like, oh yeah, I watched the office and I really like it.
Even if the love story is your favorite part, maybe I'm just speaking for myself,
Danielle: here we go. Here we go.
Krispin: but you know what I [00:26:00] mean? Like, it's just interesting to be like, how do we frame things and what is, uh, what romance are we allowed to like, and what are we not allowed to like, or like, what's cool to like,
Danielle: I think men do like,
romances. I think you just hit on something Right there. And just because romance is, are mostly written by women for women, it doesn't mean that men can't, you know, enjoy them. And I think they do. Um, but I do think like a woman's pleasure is usually at the forefront, right. Of these Stories.
Krispin: And
Danielle: that's why it appeals to women. But I also again, I think it does appeal to men too.
They just don't feel very much cultural permission to talk about that. So, yeah. we already talked a little bit about you growing up, liking Jane Austin. um, We're going to try and talk about this in maybe a patron only episode, but like, what do you think was like Christian? romance for young men?
Because like I grew up with all the, these books.
We're going to be talking about throughout this series. Right. I got Christie Miller books
Um, just blanking at all, [00:27:00] all of that right now, But like Bodie, Tanny books. Like all these books that were mostly historical, not all of them, some contemporary, but yeah. just for young women for teens that were very, had a romance. That was very chaste, of course. Um, but what about, for young men?
Krispin: I don't know, because if I had known I would have been into it, this is what I did. I watched a walk to remember often, um, and in like a few other things, but it, it just, it kind of felt like, I didn't know.
Like if there ha if I, if there had been more romance I would have watched or read it.
Danielle: you were a very romantic boy. You were very into romance. You were very, you really wanted to fall in love. Right? All that stuff. did. you find some of that in music or not
Krispin: Yeah, totally. Like I would just like, I mean, I was thinking about how I would just [00:28:00] like walk around at night, listening to like dashboard confessional and like feel all my feelings. Um, But the other thing for me, um, I had like, um, uh, these Christian Rome, sorry, these Christian like dating marriage, like courtship books.
Right? So like whatever the followup was too, I kissed dating goodbye when God writes your love story. Like these things like. It's actually like, here's the way you're supposed to date or you know, how you're supposed to get together. And a lot of that would be like them telling this story. And so I would just like, read about that and fantasize about that.
Danielle: about Josh Harris and his
Krispin: Yeah. Right.
Danielle: And that is so fast. And Because I do think, I do think that Christian romance honestly falls into two. categories. One is the like romance fiction genre, and then the other. is like the Christian living. Self-help like, Here's how to get a godly wife or husband and what to do to get married.
So I [00:29:00] definitely think you're right. That
Boys and men, mostly what you guys had was like every man's battle,
Like here's how to not look at pornography. Here's how, you know, while that heart, right. Here's how to be a godly man and get a lady to fall in love with you. I guess I didn't read any of those books, so. I don't know, but I think it's interesting that you had to turn to music primarily to have your romantic needs.
met.
Um, and then you had these like self-help books. I don't know. Did they really help yourself?
Krispin: Well,
Danielle: think
Krispin: here's a description of, uh, when God writes your love story by Eric and Leslie Ludy when God writes your love story shows that God's way to true love brings fulfillment and romance in its purest richest, and most satisfying form, right? Like that's the same thing of like what women that are reading romance are longing for.
I think that like you want, like, I think that satisfaction, like the richest and most satisfying form, right? You want something like [00:30:00] real and passionate and like that's, and that's what there is.
Danielle: people seem very passionate. I read all those books and all, of it, it was just, Dole. Dole. Dole is tombs.
Krispin: I think for me it was like, oh, if I can just be good enough, if I can be like, like I would be such a good husband, if someone would just give me a chance.
Danielle: You
Krispin: for a compliment right now,
Danielle: wrong because I think you're an, amazing husband, but it is funny.
to think about how different we were. You grew up with These, you know, romance things. And it's not like I didn't like romance at all. I just
Krispin: couldn't
Danielle: See it ever working out for me. Um, you know what I mean? So I I only, if I had a crush on somebody, it was somebody that like, it would never work out And I would be friends
with guys until they professed their love for me.
And then I would be done with them forever. And you were the first person, I ever dated, you know? [00:31:00] First and only person I've ever dated or kiss at all of that stuff. But I too remember. So we met at Bible college And you would try and sell these like romantic things like these picnics and you always, it, music was always very important to you.
And so you would bring like a boombox with iron and wine and,
it would be in the sunshine and you just want to like lay there and like gaze at me. And I was like,
This is boring and weird, and they probably wanted to be off in a walk, talking to you about whatever intense Thing I was reading about. Right.
And so it is very funny.
Krispin: Like
Danielle: W not everybody's the same and that's okay. and I'm sorry. that I didn't like your probiotic things And you still, you still trying to get me to listen to records with you.
You're very sweet. I've changed a little bit, right? I'm more comfortable with romance and in showing affection all that, but there's some, uh, some eye contact
Krispin: you used to just glare at me all the time.
Danielle: the only way [00:32:00] I knew how to interact.
Krispin: he was being flirtatious.
Danielle: think I was flirting. Well, we know so much more about me now, don't we? And it all worked out. And, um, There's some really good things that I ended up discovering and I'm going to have to save this for another episode. Uh, you know, all the things that
an autistic religious young woman did it learn, um, because I only read Christian books.
So that's, that's another fascinating thing I can, I can show some gaps in, in all that. So, I mean, we grew up in this little bubble, where we were trying to figure out. what romance looks like while we're trying to figure out hormones, what we're trying to figure out how to like find somebody to, love us.
Right. I think you ended up becoming an attachment therapist. which is really beautiful. You know, you're somebody that always had this longing for romance and to find somebody and to be fully loved and to fully, love somebody else. and I just think that's really cool.
Um, we will get into
Krispin: like
Danielle: the weird thing [00:33:00] about Christian romance in particular, is that it wasn't just about guy meets godly girl. They get married.
They also bring in this element of a relationship with God.
Krispin: Okay. Cause that was my question. I was like, when I think of like Christian. Romance. I'm like, isn't it just like the hallmark channel? Like in the sense of like, it's just like a love story.
Like everything else, except there's no sex and there's no diversity
Danielle: I mean that that is what makes it like. a hallmark channel movie.
Krispin: But there is an actual extra element of okay. Yes.
Danielle: Of the character, the Female character. having a relationship with God. And usually it becomes strengthened right through trials and. all that stuff. and women readers. And, and I, we talk about This in some of my interviews. This season
um, you know, when readers who read Christian romance say they view it as like a devotional, reading.
They end up feeling [00:34:00] closer to
God when they read these books. Right. And so that is not what people say when they read a regular romance books. Okay. Let's just put that out there. And People re mostly read regular romance books, because.
they find. Titillating, you know, it was one huge element of it.
Krispin: Well, I think that hits on what I was saying earlier, which is like, in my mind, it's just, it's a Christian book and the goal of Christian fiction, just like Christian nonfiction is to bring you closer to God.
Danielle: Also sets up some interesting,
Krispin: um,
Danielle: ideas about romance and male, female relationships. And what a happy ending is right.
So Happy endings in regular romance involves a female pleasure and female pleasure being prioritized and having a man. usually right, who is obsessed with the happiness
of their female partner.
This is not. You know,
Krispin: in Christian romantics. God's pleasure. That's a phrase that John [00:35:00] Piper uses all the time.
Danielle: you obeyed God and you did God's plan. And now, you
Krispin: just want to say, like, I'm not trying to be, I'm trying to not trying to be dirty here. That's what John Piper talks about all the time. God's pleasure,
Danielle: Right? You should find some drawn paper pleasure quotes for our next episode, but it does get sticky, but I will say the hallmarks for me from Christian fiction for one I can see is, uh, yes. Happily ever after is there, Right. And in there is a love story. there. So that's the same, but then you have this added element of it is squeaky, clean, squeaky, clean. Okay. And then is a part of the plot and obeying God and being obedient to God. and What God desires It is very important.
in most of these books.
Um, and you know, We'll get into this, but the most popular, you know, sub genres within Christian romance are things like Amish romance, biblical historical fiction, um, historical fiction, like around world [00:36:00] war two, all this stuff and Where the patriarchy is alive, and strong and a lady who like submits to a godly man within the patriarch. he's going to have like the best life possible. So
Krispin: when you're telling me that's problematic,
Danielle: and I think there's a reason why I did not identify with most of these books, you know what I mean? So, uh, so, so we'll get into All that. So I don't know, is this going to be a simple seasoned Crispin? How do you feel?
Krispin: excited. I am. I've been, I've listened to three episodes so far since I'm on the editing side and it has just been amazing. Um, I have loved all of them. Um, I love, uh, looking like some of what we're looking at this genre, but also looking a little bit at, uh, Quote, unquote, romantic relationships in the Bible and also just like narratives around women in the Bible and like how that compares and contrasts.
Um, and so [00:37:00] I'm very excited about that. Um, you just talk to some amazing people.
Danielle: Yeah. And then maybe it seems like I'm going to be just like poo-pooing on all Christian romance and I'm not going to be doing that either, but I have some very huge concerns about the way upholds, Patriarchy, the way upholds, whiteness, And the way it pulls like an idealized white Christian version of America in particular and how this has like overtaken the white evangelical woman's like romantic imagination.
Like we've got to talk. about that.
Krispin: It sounds like you are not, um, you're not. Poo-pooing on romance. You're poo-pooing the ways that white.
Danielle: You need to stop saying poo-pooing I know I started that say denigrate.
Krispin: Okay, there we go. I just wanted to say shitting on.
Danielle: Oh, we're a Christian podcasts.
Krispin: Uh, it sounds like you are not denigrating romance. You are denigrating [00:38:00] the ways that whiteness and white nationalism and, uh, white supremacist Christianity has infected romance.
Danielle: Yes.
Krispin: Is that an okay way to put it
Danielle: would say, as I, as part of my, you know, big plan with this season was to reread, some of these. Christian romance books That sold millions and millions and millions of copies I've just never been studied, never been talked about, but I believe had a huge part to play in shaping the political imagination of white Christian women who we know you know, are voting, for the Republican party who are, doing horrific things in the name of their faith.
And, Uh, so I'm like, yeah,
Krispin: I think
Danielle: a lot of Christian romance books are really the story of, you know, white Christian women falling in love with Christian nationalism. And like, I'm not here to say that's okay, so let's go on
Krispin: All right. That's a great place to start. I'm [00:39:00] so excited to get going on this season. We'll be rolling these out every other week. We talked to a lot of different people
Danielle: and they're also smart and so cool. And also we're going to be doing some fun stuff for our patrons, uh, watching some Christian romance, movies, uh, talking through stuff.
I think Christian and I might do like a. Get a little more in depth about our weird Christian romantic escapades with other people with each other. So that would be fun. Um, but yeah. Thanks everybody for listening supporting, please share about the podcast, if you're into it. And we also on our website, prophetic imagination station.com, you can go and leave a voicemail and we'd love to hear, from people. We want to start putting snippets of people's stories up into these episodes.
My, dream is to have people. Recap or retail one of the Christian romance, books they read when they were, growing up, because some of these are so unbelievable. I can't read them all. I can't. discuss all of them, But if you read a real weirdo [00:40:00] yeah. Real weird book growing up, like leave us a voicemail. Tell us what it was like. Um, and yeah. Tell us your funny Christian.
dating stories. Send us anything you want and follow us on Twitter. Follow us on Instagram. And we're going to try and be better about updating those things.
Krispin: Thanks. Y'all.
